Holt McCallany Is an actor who for much of his thirty-plus years in the business you might have seen on screen and thought, “where do I know that guy from?” But over the last decade, McCalllany’s profile has risen thanks to great work in top-level projects like Lights Out, Sully, Nightmare Alley, and perhaps most significantly, David Fincher’s Mindhunter series on Netflix. Now, with A24’s The Iron Claw, McCallany is poised to reach even greater heights on the strength of his performance as Fritz, the patriarch of the real-life wrestling family, the Von Erichs.

The Iron Claw is a stunner of a film with excellent performances by a loaded cast that includes Zac Efron, Jeremy Allen White, Maura Tierney, and Harris Dickinson. McCallany’s performance is essential to understanding the painful and extraordinary tragedies that this family of remarkable athletes suffered through. While it might be easy to see Holt’s work as Fritz Von Erich as a stereotypical villain, those who watch The Iron Claw closely will see a man who is far too driven, and perhaps full of too much love to be the best father he could be.

It is to McCallany’s great credit that he walks the line between playing a full-on heel (as Fritz did in the ring) and being a man who simply wants too much for his own sons. In our conversation, we discuss his approach to playing Fritz, the camaraderie of the cast, and also what it means to find yourself peaking in your profession later in life. We also sneak in some Mindhunter talk too.

Awards Daily: I was a wrestling fan as a kid and then around age 13/14, I stepped away from it as some do. I was aware of the Von Erichs. I’d seen them wrestle, but I left the game before the tragedies started happening. When you got the screenplay, did you sit there and say “you couldn’t make this up”?

Holt McCallany: It’s heartbreaking that so much tragedy would befall one family. It’s just heartbreaking, but it is fascinating, and it’s true. It happened, and it happened against the backdrop of one of the most exciting versions of sports entertainment that we have in this country. I came away from this experience of training for the film, shooting the film, learning about the Von Erichs, and learning about professional wrestling with tremendous respect and admiration for the men who do this for a living.

It’s so much harder than it looks, and it requires such tremendous athleticism and tremendous technique. The technique is something that is very difficult to learn, and if you don’t know it, you don’t know it, but you better know it before you get in that ring. You gotta know how to take the bumps, you gotta know how to sell it, you gotta know how to pull your shots and make them look real, but you can’t just go teeing off. It’s not a boxing match. And yet, you still have to have the charisma and the personality to create a character and capture the imagination of the wrestling fans. If you don’t have any of those things, and if you’re not good on the mic, “good on the stick”, as they like to say, then you’re not going to be a star in professional wrestling. It’s a combination of qualities.

Awards Daily: One of the reasons your character Fritz lives through his children is because, despite his ring acumen, there was something missing that didn’t allow him to ascend to the world championship in the National Wrestling Association (NWA). Politics. Typically that’s what it is, right?

Holt: Definitely politics.

Awards Daily: Kevin, played by Zac Efron, has an issue of his own. The athleticism is all there, but he’s not good on the stick. So that is a barrier for him. There is a harshness to the way that Fritz bypasses his eldest son, Kevin, to move on to David.

Holt McCallany: I think that Fritz really did believe that David, Kevin, and Kerry could all be champions. I believe that. Irrespective of what other people might say, I think he even believed that about his son Mike, whom some would argue didn’t belong in there. The decision to move David up first was not a decision that meant that Kerry and Kevin would never have their opportunity, but David was the likely choice, because he was good on the stick. He was a good wrestler. He didn’t have that beautiful body that Kerry had, and he wasn’t as handsome as Kevin was. But remember, he went out on the road and wrestled in places like Georgia and Florida away from his father’s promotion, against his father’s wishes, and played a heel out on the road. They were babyfaces in Dallas. They were the rock stars of Texas wrestling. Fritz had always been a heel, let’s face it, but he was determined that his sons were going to be babyfaces. That was a business decision, in terms of, I’ve got a chance to maneuver one of my sons into the heavyweight championship of the NWA. Who’s most ready? Well, Kevin’s the oldest, but David’s more ready.

That doesn’t mean that Kevin’s not going to get his opportunity, but we’re going to go first with our strongest choice. Right now, our strongest choice is David—played by a terrific young actor named Harris Dickinson, who has a very bright future and is a really talented, respectful kid. If David Von Erich hadn’t died tragically in a hotel room in Tokyo, Japan, under, let’s just say, murky circumstances, I think the future of the Von Erich family would have been very different, and it would have been a different story. It would have been a different movie. But that’s what happened. I think it was devastating for Fritz, whether he cried at the funeral or he didn’t cry at the funeral. People have made a lot of the fact that he didn’t want tears. I think he was just encouraging his sons to say listen, I know how painful this is. It’s painful for you, just as it’s painful for me. You lost a brother, I lost a son. We all lost someone who was very, very important. We have to find a way to move forward.

Awards Daily: The four sons are like this incredibly close and loving collective, but they answer to their father. One of the thoughts that I had is that sometimes maybe it’s questionable to trust a man whose adult children still call him “sir.” When Kerry couldn’t compete in the Olympics as a discus thrower because of the boycott in 1980, Fritz asked him to become part of the wrestling team. Just like that, Kerry just says “yes sir,” that’s what I’m going to do. There’s a dominance that Fritz exerts over his sons. How did you view that power over his children? There’s living vicariously through your children, but this doesn’t even feel vicarious. It feels like something else, another word we need to invent.

Holt McCallany: We now live in a world where something like simple, basic human emotions like respect and admiration for your father is somehow considered old-fashioned, and why would we ever entertain the idea that maybe the boys actually looked up to and admired their dad? Fritz played many roles in their lives. He’s not just the first wrestler in the family. He’s not just the guy with the experience. He’s also a coach, and he’s also the owner of the promotion. So, if you’re going to come to work, he’s also the boss. For a while he was even the booker. Fritz signs the paychecks. Fritz is in charge. I think how they refer to him depends on the occasion. Sometimes they might refer to him as dad or pa, or sometimes they say yes, sir, when they understand that it’s a very serious subject. He’s not talking now as the loving dad, and I do believe that he was a loving dad, but now he’s talking about something that has genuine importance, like okay, you’re not going to the Olympics, so what are you going to do? Well, I can tell you the one option that’s wide open to you because you got everything you need. You’re a tremendous athlete. You’re in tremendous physical condition.

Let me just say one thing about my friend, Jeremy Allen White. He’s an actor who’s had a lot of success in recent years and it’s well deserved. He’s the real McCoy. I came up in New York in the theater in the same way that Jeremy did. He went to the high school for performing arts. He’s been an actor since he was a very young guy, and it shows in his preparation and it shows in his execution. I liked working with Jeremy very much. He’s a heck of an actor, and I thought that he played that scene perfectly and that would have been Kerry’s response, and I really believe that. I don’t think it took a lot of convincing. I think that Kerry Von Erich arguably became the most famous wrestler of the Von Erich family, eclipsing his father. If you read the wrestling experts, you’ll read a lot of disparaging things about Fritz: that he was controlling, that he exploited family tragedy for commercial gain. I think that’s a gross oversimplification. I think that he was a family man who genuinely took pride in the success of his sons. I think he loved his wife with all his heart. I think he’s the kind of man who was in love with one woman his entire life. I think when she walked out on him after so many years of marriage, he was left devastated by that. He died a few years later.

Without getting too esoteric about this, I think the most dangerous emotion that can exist between a father and son is jealousy. If a father is jealous of his son’s youth, jealous of his son’s opportunities…I never saw any evidence of that in Fritz whatsoever. Fritz only took pride in his sons’ success. Fritz would sit ringside during the matches. He’d say, you see what Kevin just did in there? Look at that move that Kerry just made in there. He just loved it. He viewed his sons’ success as his success. Did that lead him perhaps to make some questionable decisions in terms of maybe covering up for them when they got in trouble? Using his connections and his resources to make things go away if they weren’t good for his boy or good for the franchise, good for the company? Sure he did. He did those things. But to say that he did those things just because it meant extra dollars in his pocket is to miss the point.

Awards Daily: The easy way to have played Fritz would have been as a pure stage dad villain, and you avoided that. I don’t think it was necessarily the easiest thing for you to do . I thought you really glided over that line, keeping him from being a stereotypical papa dearest, so to speak.

Holt McCallany: Nothing you could possibly say to me could mean more to me than what you just said. There was one critic who said the opposite and that I’m going to be in the bad movie dad hall of fame, because there were no vulnerable moments. There were no chinks in the armor. I had those moments. Not every scene an actor shoots is going to make it into the final cut. I think Sean Durkin did an excellent job with a very difficult subject, and I enjoyed every day working with him on the set. Some of the more tender, vulnerable scenes of Fritz, where we see his inner turmoil that really flesh him out as a multi-dimensional character, didn’t make it into the final edit. Hopefully there’s still enough there, if you pay close attention. Some of the family scenes of the way that he interacts with his wife and with his boys in certain situations show that this is first and foremost a family man that loves his family deeply. He’s a religious guy. He was far from perfect and made some bad decisions along the way. If people do kind of see him as a one-dimensional villain, that’s not who he was, and that’s not how I attempted to portray him.

Awards Daily: You mentioned Jeremy. I think he’s like a young Sean Penn.

Holt McCallany: That’s a very good description. I knew Sean Penn and I worked with Sean when he was young. I was doing a Vietnam movie with him back in the 80’s, Casualties of War, and we’re doing our training to be soldiers, and every soldier in Vietnam got issued an M16, right? They wanted you to be very familiar with the weapon. You had to be able to disassemble it and reassemble it, because if you’re out in the bush and your weapon malfunctions or jams, then you’re dead. You’re defenseless. So, we would get the gun disassembled and oil it. And then I was having trouble reassembling my weapon. I complained to Sean that they didn’t give us enough time. They didn’t give us enough time to learn the M16. And Sean said to me, and I’ve carried this with me for 30 plus years, never wait for a film company to train you. They give you a week for something that takes a month. They give you a day for something that takes a week and they give you two hours for something that takes an entire day. So go get your own training. We had Sergeant Dale Dye and Mike Stokey as technical advisors, guys that had been in Vietnam, guys that knew what they were talking about. We did a whole week of training out in the bush. It just wasn’t enough. Sean said to me that there are mercenary schools all over the country. There are plenty of Vietnam vets that would be happy to spend their entire day teaching you the M16, buddy. There’s nothing preventing you from going and getting your training.

So, when I got this part, the first thing I did was go to wrestling school. I went to see The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz, who wrestled Kevin Von Erich in Madison Square Garden. He wrestled everybody: Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Bruno Sammartino, you name it. He was a worker. He was one of Vince McMahon’s seniors. Anyway, I said I’m going to be Fritz Von Erich. He said, the Iron Claw? You’re going to be the Iron Claw? I said yes, sir, I’m going to be the Iron Claw. He goes okay, the first thing you do is wipe that smile off your face, because when Fritz Von Erich got in the ring, he wasn’t smiling. Fritz was a heel, and Fritz knew how to get the crowd agitated. He impersonated a Nazi, in the early nineteen-fifties when there was still so much anti-German sentiment after the war, so that’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to capture the essence of what a particular wrestler’s identity was in there. How did he wrestle? How did he move? What was he known for? Yeah, we know the Iron Claw, but it’s not just the Iron Claw. There’s a whole character. His real name is Jack Adkisson. His name is not Fritz Von Erich. That’s a character that Jack created for a specific reason, because he wanted to be a heel, and he needed to create a persona. And that’s part of what is essential in the sport of professional wrestling. It’s not enough to be a tremendous athlete. It’s not enough to have the endurance and be able to take the bumps and know the technique and all that stuff. You have to be able to create a character that interests the wrestling fans and holds their attention. And Fritz was good. So was his son David. That’s why David was chosen. His death set in motion a series of events that eventually led to the demise, not only of World Class Championship Wrestling (the ECCE–Fritz’s promotional company), but really of the Von Erich family.

Awards Daily: Maura Tierney, who I think is one of the most reliably excellent actors we have working. I don’t know why she doesn’t get more acclaim, but every time she steps into a role you just believe.

Holt McCallany: When you’re cast opposite an actress, whether she’s your wife, or your girlfriend, your love interest, whatever she might be, you always hope that you’re going to have chemistry and that you’re going to get along and that you’re going to be able to see yourself as her husband, feel like her husband. I really felt that way about Maura. I really liked Maura a great deal personally. She’s a very intelligent and thoughtful person. I think she’s a genuinely kind person. She is a woman who will stand up for herself, and yet at the same time, she understood that Doris occupied a certain position in the family. I’m not trying to say that Doris wasn’t an important person in that family–she had a tremendous amount of sway over the boys and over Fritz. But, Fritz is an old school guy and he has his perspective on things, and she understood that, and we got along famously. She gave me a wrap gift, a beautiful lithograph, which I had framed. It hangs in my office at home, which is a special room that’s devoted to just a little bit of memorabilia from all of my favorite projects over the years, whether it’s Fight Club or Mindhunter or The Iron Claw.

Awards Daily: Or Lights Out? I love Lights Out.

Holt McCallany: I love Lights Out too. And there’s a poster of me and a great actor named Billy Brown, who is still one of my favorite people in Hollywood. And talk about a guy who’s underrated and doesn’t get the props he deserves. Somebody give him the lead on a series or in a film right away, because Billy Brown is as charismatic and likable and smart and talented as any guy in LA. If you remember the show, he was Death Row Reynolds. He was my competitor, and he really brought it. What a special guy, what a wonderful guy. I loved working with Maura, and I liked her. When you got a face like this and you look like you should be serving multiple life sentences for aggravated homicide (Laughs), you don’t get to kiss too many of the girls, but I got to kiss Maura.

Awards Daily: And you got to be Zac Efron’s dad.

Holt McCallany: I got to be Zac’s dad, yeah.

Awards Daily: He really shows something here. He’s been pushing the envelope as an actor for a while now, like when he played Ted Bundy in recent years and so forth. Maybe some of those projects weren’t as acclaimed, but I think people will see him differently going forward.

Holt McCallany: Zac and I got along very well. He’s an amiable guy, he’s congenial, and he’s respectful. We developed a friendship, and I wish him nothing but the best. I would have preferred to be included more in the marketing of the film with Zac and with Jeremy. Fritz is a big part of the movie, but I’m happy for all of our sakes, that this film seems poised to be a real commercial hit.

Awards Daily: You have been doing good work for a very, very long time, but it does seem like in recent years that you’ve really hit your stride. I don’t want to use the word late bloomer because I think that’s got negative connotations potentially with it. But is there something about getting to the level of success that you’ve been recently achieving as a more mature person that is more satisfying?

Holt McCallany: It’s such a great question, David. I wouldn’t take offense at all at being called a late bloomer. Here’s what I’ll say to you: I have had a measure of success in recent years, and I think the best is yet to come. I think that you’re going to hear a lot more from me over the next few years. As a matter of fact, I can guarantee you that you will. Success is sweeter when it comes later in life. And the reason for that is because you are genuinely able to feel like you earned it, like you deserve it. You worked for it. My very first acting teacher was a wonderful guy named Harold Guskin, and sadly he’s gone now. His students included people like Kevin Kline and James Gandolfini, Glenn Close, Rachel Weisz, Jean Reno, some of the greatest actors of all time. I remember my very first lesson with him. He said I’m going to tell you two things today, and if you remember these two things, if you can really take them to heart, that’ll be enough of a lesson for your first day.

Here’s number one: talent will win in the end. You have to believe that. You have to be an optimist. You can’t think about the odds against you. That’s a self-defeating mentality. The truth is, success has to happen to somebody. Why can’t it be you, if you really are the right guy? I think you’re the right guy. Do you believe it about yourself? You have to believe in yourself first and foremost, and believe that your talent will win in the end. It may take time. It may take many years, but eventually you’re going to get an opportunity, and when you get that opportunity, you’re going to make the most of it. I never forgot that. And then the other thing he said to me was don’t worry about being in with the “in crowd.” If you do what you do and you do it well, that puts you in. It’s not about showing up at the right parties and hoping to meet a certain director, or walking the red carpet and getting your picture taken. It’s about the work that you do. To try to improve yourself as an actor, and you’re going to continue to do that work, and you’re going to do it every day. If you’re a little better this year than you were last year, you’re going to be a little better next year than you are right now. If you can continue to grow in that way, there will continue to be a place for you in this industry.

Awards Daily: I wanted Lights Out to go on longer because it was just you so obviously blooming in front of our eyes. I was so heartbroken when it didn’t, but I was so glad that it didn’t sink you though, as it can sometimes with what people might consider a failed TV show.

Holt McCallany: We only lasted one season. John Landgraf, who runs FX, who’s an executive that I have tremendous respect for, he’s one of the smartest guys in town, he loved the show. John wanted to renew the show. Television is about advertising. You have to have a certain amount of viewership in order for the show to be profitable for the network. And we didn’t hit the number. We didn’t hit the threshold. I think that if the show came out today, we would, because the networks eventually sort of recalibrated the way that they determine viewership numbers.

Awards Daily: It was pre-streaming too, right? People can find you now in ways they couldn’t before.

Holt McCallany: That’s exactly right. There was also confusion in the marketplace. We launched the same week as The Fighter with Mark Wahlberg and Christian Bale, that wonderful film by David O. Russell about the great Micky Ward, who is a personal friend of mine, and someone that I have tremendous admiration for and I’ve known for many, many years. People would come up to me in airports and go hey man, you’re in The Fighter, that’s a great movie, and I would have to say well, no, actually, I’m in Lights Out. What’s Lights Out? You’re in the boxing thing. Yeah It’s a boxing thing, but it’s a boxing television show on FX. Oh, I’ll have to see that. Well, no, you’ve already seen it, because you recognized me as the boxer. (Laughs). Anyway, it was just unfortunate timing. The critics loved the show. I loved making the show. It broke my heart when the show got canceled, but David, it’s show business. It’s a life’s journey. I chose this vocation.

Did I want Mindhunter to be canceled after two seasons? Uh, no, but that’s not my decision. That’s my friend David’s (Fincher) decision. And if that’s David’s decision, that’s David’s decision. I understand, and I accept, and I move on. I remain grateful, and I mean this sincerely, for the opportunity to have made Lights Out, for the opportunity to have made Mindhunter, even if they didn’t last as long as I might have hoped, I still got to be there, and I’m proud of the work that we did. You’re talking about my two favorite projects. Let me prattle on just for five more seconds. I loved making those shows, and I can only hope that at some point in my career, there’ll be something else that I feel as strongly about as I do about those two television series, because not all series are created equal. Let’s face it. Most of them are pretty forgettable. I don’t think you can say that about Mindhunter. And for the boxing fans and for the people out there who really love the fight game, I think the same can be said for Lights Out.

Awards Daily: There is a huge subculture of Mindhunter fans, and my wife and I are two of them, who have not given up on the idea that there could be a third season. We refuse to give up on it.

Holt McCallany: I’ve heard that David’s thought about it. I’m not saying it’s going to come back. But what I am saying is that if it comes back, I’m coming back with it. You can take that to the bank, but it’ll depend on what David wants to do. It’s been a few years now, so it’s probably unlikely, but just even that he would think about it is a hopeful sign.